Adding my 2 cents on the loudness race, I have a CD with all the Dream Theather albums (mp3's), from Images and Words thru Systematic Chaos. The first time I got through it it went from the last song in SC to the first one in IAW, and the volume difference is absurd. About 6 levels in my volume dial. And yes, you crank up their latest CD's and they distort inmediately, while a song like Pull Me Under can be cranked up to oblivion while still hearing everything clearly.

I think that the only way to revert this is if the artists complain. Fans can complain about it all we want, but we still keep buying these poor-sounding records because we have no choice, it's the only way we can get a hold of our favorite music. Blame radio and the record companies, but the artists are not stopping it, so they have their share of the blame as well.

REVAN 2008 - Cool...thanks for the info on Black Country Woman. I didn't know much more than "Hmmm...it probably has something to do with England." So thanks. ;-)

Sorry...I guess I could have worded that better. What I meant was, with most of the earliest CDs (through 1988 or 1989 or so, I guess?), record companies treated pressing them the same way they treated pressing vinyls. So both came from the same original tapes (the masters) and they kept the levels the same regardless of where they were going (vinyl or CD). But those are two different mediums, and a lot of the CD's potential was wasted early on.

About SC and PSATMOR, I think I disagree. I mean, yeah I think SC was mastered with "caring hands" (to use your words), but I'd say maybe it was too careful...the album sounds a bit sterile to me. While PSATMOR is louder overall, I think it serves the music well. I can still pick all the instruments out of the mix. I also think the bass is audible enough, but then again I play bass so maybe it's easier for me to hear.

Of course it'd be best if both of these were mastered like SWTA or FIABD, but... ;-)

As I said above, I didn't explain myself as well as I could have. What I meant is some of the earliest CDs didn't take advantage of everything a CD can offer (the peak isn't as high as it could be). So yes, maybe this particular CD is one like that...

And djzn explained "good" mastering versus "bad" mastering rather nicely. I'm a bit wary of current remasters, but generally anything that was remastered in the 1990s is an improvement over the original versions. Now that we're into the 2000s and loud is "normal", things are more hit and miss.

The most recent Rush and Yes remasters are excellent, but the Genesis remasters (in the box sets) are a bit too hot for my tastes. U2 is rereleasing remastered versions of their first three albums this week...I expect they'll sound good though. They rereleased a remastered The Joshua Tree last year and it sounds excellent. Going back to the example I posted earlier...they didn't crank everything to 10...they just took the original and instead of the first CD with a range of something like 0 to 6 the new CD now has a range of 0 to 10. So there's more room for everything to breathe and it's good. But I have those original U2 albums and they sound just fine to me...I'll mainly be buying these sets for the bonus tracks.

I've been avoiding buying any Beatles albums in recent years, thinking it'd be good to wait for them to all be remastered again. But this loudness stuff has gotten out of control, so I'm at the point now where I think I'm going to just buy all of the Anthology albums that were released 10 or 15 years ago. I don't want to wait and then be disappointed.

Got my tickets for Satch at the Plaza Theather in El Paso, fourth row which I think is the best I could do without going for the premium packages.

I'll be on the left side of the stage, so very likely I'll be in front of Joe. Never been inside the Plaza, though I walked past it a hundred times when I didn't have a car. This is a historic building that recently got renovated after many years of people working on getting the funding, it's been getting a lot of high quality concerts (jazz, clasical, blues), so I expect the acoustics (and the venue in general) to be first class. Hopefully Satch won't be dissapointed!

Listening to: the Juarez weekly news summary on TV. Grim. Although it's been worse

Do the Stu/djzn : cds were AAD, ADD, or DDD. Only classic was DDD at the begining, if i remember well.

____________________

Other point : bought the Noise Reductor Behringer, & i'm very disappointed. When i use it for clean, it makes a crap breath. When i use it with saturation, it changes the tone.

Hybes : don't know if things are clear for you now..

As do the stu said, the recording can be high, medium, & loud. When you record, mix & master, you have to define the dynamic of several frequencies for the whole song. Mix & EQ parts are used to build a proportion of all the frequencies. But keep in mind that the dynamic of a song is also an artistic choice. So, it's very singular. For example, a guitar player & a bass player will think differently mix & eq. A solo guitar instrumental rock cd & a rock band cd won't be mixed & masterized the same way. From a band to an another one, the mix & eq won't be the same... about bass, during the short 70's jazzrock era, albums with Jaco Pastorius & Stanley Clarke sounded very different of others albums.

As djzn said, onto digital, you record under 0 db but looking for the best deployment of db you can get after onto listening. This means that talking about db recording & db listening is a few different, even if it's absolutly connected.

As i've said, digital recording has brought a difficulty that analogic recording didn't get. Over 0 db, there's crap saturation & bad peaks level. So the recording must be nearest of 0 db, & you have to build your dynamic with more constraints than with analogic system. This explains in part why compression & limiter are become so important in rock & metal. Using compression & limiter, you can give more power to the cd audio, but as djzn indicated, more you use compressor to obtain loudness, more you cut back the dynamic. Now, in rock, lot of people used to get a very linear mastering. All is compressed the nearest of 0 db with few dynamic. If you want to really catch the wonderfull magnitude of the dynamic, listen to classical music or jazz.

Last point, about loudness, talking about recording loud, & giving more loudness to a cd is not exactly the same. As i'm not technician, i can't explain that clearly, but the loudness is a way to give more power to a cd audio. Principal tools for that are compressor & limiter. More you give loudness, more you get peak level prob & more you have to crush the dynamic. So, indeed, there's less subtilities on a cd overlouded.

But loudness doesn't mean necessarily a crap dynamic... everybody know Metallica..

You can also check here a song that is for me an awesome balance of loudness & dynamic : Jeff Beck : Earthquake

Good morning Satchland!

Firstly, does anyone know the date when the Satchurator will be released in the UK? I've been told late summer, but other than that, can't seem to find anything.

Zenfish, thanks very much for checking my stuff. Any criticisms you have of it?

Guitarman 77897, I got a Tascam 788 years ago which is a great way to easily record guitar and other basic tracks, I used to hook a drum machine in from my computer and borrowed a bass from a friend etc to get the basics down.....they don't make that one any more, but here's their current range: link and you record to hard disk which saves messing about. Some have CD burning facilities too. There's loads of other brands out there too, so look around :-) Are you recording at the minute?

I think most of you have hit the nail on the head with the loudness issue, most albums peak at 0db, but there's a difference between say SWTAlien and say Strange Beautiful music in that there is less dynamic contrast in the latter. Dare I say it though, I'm not sure Satch has used a real drummer on his latest album. I had a listen this morning and I still think its a drum machine! I can't really talk having used a drum machine on some of my own stuff, but does anyone else think this?!

Djzm, I guess it depends on the team behind the remastering then, and each one might be good or bad. I was just asking because I ordered a remastered copy of a Megadeath CD, I listened to it and lost it to someone years back, in a bargain basement section of my favourite music website.

Stu, doh I'm a bit silly, of course it wasn't recorded straight from vinyl, I even knew that! Your description was so compelling I just accepted it as wrote!! I realise I didn't comprehend it properly now.

Mjs, Thankyou so much for posting the crowd singing Happy Birthday to Joe. I loved the way they donned baldy heads and cool shades, and Joe seemed really chuffed! I would have loved to have been there.

Ok, next year, wherever Joe is in the world, whether on his own or in Chickenfoot or whatever, I want to be there that night!!

Nick : I don't think i get something to say that would help you to go on. So no, no critics. Sorry.

Dream/Nick : as i've said once face to face to Joe, in general, Drum is not really the aspect that differentiates his music. I always found that curious for an Hendrix's heir.

If you listen to NOTE, SWTA, Dreamin#11, FIBD, drum is reduced to a perfect timing. Sometime, it's a drummer, but it could be a drum program machine. Somethime it might be the both. & sometime just machine. The explaination must be that Joe was obviously obsessed by the tone of guitar, in all the details of the thing, on a very high level. & he's awesome onto that line. That's an artistic choice.. funny.. this makes me remember the old 80's polemic between the Satch's fans, & the Malmsteen's fans. Maybe the best would have been to learn from the both, out of sterile polemics.

In all the work of Joe, I just see the Red Album & the SF live which give more place to drums expression.

It's Joe. With him, the fans of percusive aspect of music will stay hungry. There's other food for thought.

To talk about the Joe approach of studio work, i personnaly think that Crystal Planet is his best work. But this is subjective. & i just keep the Red Album as a special album.

What's up Joe? I will be photographing your Buenos Aires show next friday. Was wondering if you can get me make some pics from on top of the stage, behind the drums?

Please drop me a line

will be good to see you guys again

Take care,

Zenfish - It is a bit more clear now. I had a good understanding of db's but I was not aware of the usage when recording. It's an intersting subject for sure. When Stu broke it down to a 0 to 10, it was bit more clear for me. I wonder why bands would start recording at a higher db if you're just going to lose the quality of the recording. It deosn't make a lot of sense to me. I know there was mention of Joe's newer recordings being recorded too loud. But when I listen to Super Collasal or Prof Satch, you can really hear the layerings very clearly. I guess if I were recording music myself, I think I would prefer to record super clean and allow the fans sound systems to give them the volume. Is this issue just in the rock arena or is it an issue across the board?

Do the Stu - thanks for the breakdown. It's a good topic. I will have to read some of the articles that people have posted. I never realized it was becoming such an issue in the recording industry. Does it drive you crazy when you're listening to a song on your mp3 player and the volume is perfect and then a song comes on that you can barely hear? I know Itunes will allow you to set all your songs at the same volume output. I have never messed with it much. Perhaps I should.

Hybes : As i've already said to you, on a certain level of work, when the musicians & their engineers get a good experience, recording clean or dirt, or alternation of the both aspects, is an artistic choice. Joe sounds always "clean". & he's very concentrated onto perfection. That's why some love or admire him. & that's why some others hate him, saying that he sounds cold.

About the overloudcompression question, & concidering we are talking about guys who produce the music they wish, it's an effect that some research, especially in the current metal bands. At this point, it's more a question of taste than other thing. What does mean overloudcompression? That for the same db mastering, the cd is gonna to sound more powerfull & heavier. But also more dirty.

& once more, if you are interested by the sounding possibilties that offers the dynamic in music, check jazz or classical music, because these stuffs get more dynamic than rock. Rock is far to be the stuff which offers the best exploration of dynamic.

Things are like that.

Good Morning Satchland......How Is Everyone ????

We had a great time in Wisconsin. Rained a little at night but no big deal. I fixed the stairs going down to the lake for the in-laws and they appreciated it very much. There's no place like home .......Dorothy was right...lol...

Guitarman77897...... How are you? My in-laws live on Lake Redstone. It's near the town of LaValle which 20 min. South of the Dells. It's a really nice Lake. It's pretty much quite....not a lotta boats and jet skis. At night the stars unreal. You can actually see satellites in orbit. It's pretty cool. Take Care.

Band update......I'm learning..."I know a Little" by Skynyrd. Steve Gaines is kickin' my ass right now....but I'm gettin' it. Man can that guy play. It's to bad the Skynyrd plane crash had to happen. What a great band. They still are but I wish the original line up was still around. There band history is unreal. Whole lotta shit went down with this band. If there was ever a band that shows "It's all about the music" this is one of them.

Well there's a first for everything......I'm post whoring....lol.....

Check this out. These people raised a lion cub and it got to big and they had to release in the wild. After a year they went back to Africa to see him. The people said he wouldn't remember them...... They were wrong

Lion Reunion

I threw this together last night:

Satch Waveforms

In general...
- the 20th anniversary version of SWTA is the best remastered version of that album
- the remastering of songs for Anthology is horrible in general (check out how FIABD and Summer Song are just destroyed...Why and Time Machine are pretty bad too)
- JS95 is the only older Satch album that I have in its original (Relativity Records) form...the remastering done for Anthology isn't as bad as some of the other tracks from that album, but it's a lot less dynamic

So there you go...now everyone can "see" what we're talking about...

It's an issue everywhere. I'd say it's most noticeable in rock though, because rap, pop, and country generally don't tend to have as many things going on at once. So there isn't as much stuff that can get "lost" due to poor mastering.

The volume thing on MP3 players bugs me a little bit, but even with the portable player I still generally only listen to albums. So it isn't a huge deal to me. I haven't messed with any automatic volume leveling when making MP3s...I'd rather just adjust the volume slightly on my own with each song.

Listening to: Green Day - Dookie (current song: Emenius Sleepus)

Dream3 - No dude I wont take that the wrong way! I actually bought the album off itunes so couldn't see who was playing drums in the credits, so fair enough if it actually gives him credit for it! I still think that certain tracks are programmed though. For example compare Musterion and Overdriver, first two tracks. I think musterion is programmed or an electric kit, and Overdriver is more likely Jeff. Check out the drum fill at 1:20 in Musterion. I don't mean to pick apart a cool album either and I might be wrong!

Zenfish - think you're right in that he uses a combination sometimes, eg) Crystal planet has real drums throughout, but some sampled sounds entering the mix, check out Crystal Planet at 3:20. Raspberry Jam delta V is filled with sampled precusiive sounds too.

Nick