Symphony 5 ‘Preludio’ by V. Williams. Who was asking about this???? [I can’t remember]….. Anyhow, I dug out the CD and took a listen…. I recall that the debate was “is the opening section in C Lydian or D Mixlydian?”
This was a tricky one…
The most prominent bass note is C. The bass line itself always seems to start and end on C so the C does seem to be ‘in your face’…..
The collection of notes being used comes from G major…. This combination of the G major key centre and the prominence of the note C in the bass does point to C Lydian…
However, this is not the whole picture…. The is one major item missing….
What is the nature of the chord that functions essentially as ‘chord I’?
You can hear this pretty clearly in the strings.
’Chord I’ is D7 is always heard in 3rd inversion. [and on occasions D9 in 3rd inversion]
3rd inversion means that the 7th of the chord is in the bass. The 7th of D7 is the note C.
This makes the bass a bit of a ‘red-herring’ as a means of identifying the tonic.
The answer is D Mixolydian due to the value of ‘chord I’.
It is unusual to find ‘chord I’ permanently fixed in an inversion… but that is the ‘gotcha’ in this very cleverly written and subtle piece of music.
Take note that this is a 20th century work… This means that the conventional rules of harmony can get seriously broken… basically, expect everything to be unusual but it’s not always as obvious as stuff like Bartok and Schoenburg…

Look for the notes used to establish the key centre and the value of ‘chord I’…. Most often, ‘chord I’ is in root inversion…. Also take note of the date of the composition as this provides clues to the nature of the harmonic style employed…. e.g. you wouldn’t expect JS Bach to create a Chorale in F Lydian… This being the case, guys like Williams would only really employ the traditional rules of harmony if they felt the need to sound ‘authentic’ in recreating a moment from a specific period.

Paul Huxley - ah... it was the name change to Jelly Man that foxed me.... Interesting question though.. you can imagine that so far as modal theory goes, I get asked pretty much the same questions and see the same mistakes over and over... that's no problem tho.. I'll always try to help out the players that need it if I can.... but this one was way more complex than avarage... at first I thought you was right and your lecturer was wrong.. at least until I started looking into the chords being stated by the strings...

Williams Symph 5 - what an awesome piece of music....

Have you heard "The Queen Symphony" by the English composser Tolga Kashif??? this is just superb... blew me away at an instant.... premiered in 2002.. this CD is a 'must' for anyone into 'romantic' period orchestral music.... despite it being less than a year old... lol.. moving and epic stuff...

good luck dude.............

invigor - without having the luxury of vintage kit a 'Gilmore-like'setting would be to use plenty of compression... set the amp gain so it sounds as though it is just around the point where distortion starts - which means it's 'almost clean' and this adds yet more compression... a nice long reverb and a Strat in the 'neck out-of-phase' pick-up selection.. the eq you'll need to mess with yourself though as that's down to your amp / speaker set up....

anuj - yeah I agree that Shine don't sound like an LP... I wondered if anyone in here would have known to confirm or refute this... Also, I'm really not that familiar with the sound of an LP with soap-bars.. I have a rough idea of how they sound but I couldn't just hear one on a record and know it straight away... lack of familiarity I guess...

Eating sweets does not cause diabetes....

If Vai played through an ES335 he'd sound exactly like Vai...

If I played through one of Satch's Chromeboys I'd just exactly like me..

The reason for me not to buy any JS model is because I don't like any of them...

This argument is bizaar... If I played the Ibanez 'Geezer Down the Pub' sig and it turned out to be the finest thing I've played then I'd have no prob getting one... so that I can play just like me on a real nice guitar....

ovation - Angra: very good call.... during the softer moments the vocals sound so much like DT that it's quite spooky.. There's a nice variety of influencies I can hear in there... Maiden, Malmsteen, Journey, DT, Genesis [mid 70's], PFM and some touches of the local Brazilian vibes [latin].. good mix.. the drunner and bassist are pretty monsterous too....

Oki Doki on the Oki trad... Moshi Gerri Jo-dan

ovation - I've now heard the whole Angra CD.... really great stuff... I think I need to keep an eye out for their other stuff... the guitarist is not exactly a slouch either...lol he can really move...

On the 7-string... I've been told end of Feb... this is that last straw... if I hear nothing good by then then I'll be asking for a refund.. taking legal procedings... flying to Florida and getting unpleasant.... I was unerstanding with them in as much as their sub-contractor pulled a fast one and dropped them in the shit... however, they now had enough time to build me a fresh one from scratch as well as correct the mistakes.... I'm coming to the end of my patience... this is their last chance...

I'm pretty patient A/ I'm in no great need of the guitar as I have lots of others and it's not as if I'm on tour... and B/ I'm a man of my word and expect nothing less from everyone else... innocent until proven wanker... so it has now got to the point where the excuses have run out and the time scale has been way too long...

I'm normally very patient and understanding... just like everyone else.. I can be pretty unpleasent too... for me this is an absolute last resort.. in general, things do not go well when everyone is pissed off.... they just get worse so this is to be avoided if possible...

kell - actually my mature, understanding and sensitive approach to this problem is a decoy... 'cos if I have to fly to Florida to straighten this out... it will be reported in the national press as a mass extinction event... lol...lol...

Chinese philosiphy - man who walks with limp, runs with a hop...

Dude... I've never seen a more difficult way of saying A major 7 than g#sus4/+5/a..... I want a pint of what you're drinking....
Note: don't get all upset... I'm just poking a little fun....

VBIL - jeez bro... where you been all this time... wars need startin' dude...lol

Man with green thumbs.. good gardener
Man with purple thumbs... short sighted carpenter..

The album - The Beheading of John the Baptist now has 9 minutes of solos added.. 6 minutes to go then one more song... not including the obligatory Jap bonus track

Mixolydian

Quantum - If I recall correctly, the Am and F#m are not treated as though they are members of the same key...
chord VI of Am is F, chord VI of A Dorian is F#dim.. Summer Song uses F#5.. hence the key change...
you can actually hear the change from Am to F#m... it has the vibe of adding 'urgency' to the solo... this is exactly the same trick employed by Van Halen in I'm The One.. a very quick and effective method of creating additional energy... Although I've not mentioned it yet in the thoery posse stuff.. I will at some point describe so 'route 1' modulation tricks - i.e. going straight to the target key without preparation and cadences.... Satch and Vai do this a great deal..

If what you're drinking has gone off - I'll have two pints... lol lol

ovation - when the Baptist is done it'll be on it's way to Oki.....

friends in Japan too... awesome.. I need to go there and get drunk with them.... lol

Maybe I can get an award for the person that has barfed in the greatest number of different countries... but then I guess that Ozzy would win that one...

Nick - no probz... here's a nice little twist... a melody in natural minor but chord IV is major forcing you into the Dorian mode..
such as Em - C - Em - [all in Em] then A [in E Dorian].. this will cause a slight 'lift' due to the introduction of the major 6th interval... so it's 'less minor'.
and the other way around... Em - A - D - [all in E Dorian] then C [in Em]....

you can do this with lydian, mixolydian and ionian too... in fact to combinations are alomost endless..

The Summer Song times... can be done..it'll take a little longer though ['cos I'll have to put in a little more effort... lol]... I'll see what I can do..

If I get to AZ I'll look you up.. you'll so regret it..ask Texas... lol

Yoda - I know what you mean about quote Spinal... it's legendary enough to commit to memory.. lol...

also.. my new kitchen and hall floor has been sorted.. the next two weekends are busy for me... I'll check with the authorities [wife] that we have no plans.. so maybe we can jam in a few weeks tme... I'll let you know pretty soon...

try this:

http://www.carmenparker.com/frameRealtorCom.html

I used this to look for property when I was moving to Dallas Tx a few years ago [which was obviously cancelled.. lol]

also news on the band line up... my band Avarice now has a new member.. I had a serious problem to solve... I obviously don't have access to the Royal Philharmonic or London Symphony orchestras or the St Martin in the Fields Choir... shux.... but I need an orchestra and choir for live... originally I was thinking about having the band play over a click track and let sequencers solve this... this is very difficult for two reasons.. taking machines on stage is risky due to the potential of equipment failure and drummers that can play to a click and can still play in an exciting manner are about as rare as rocking horse shit / they want paying / already play for someone like Vai.... So I need to do this completely live...
I now have another keyboard player to add to the keys, drums and bass that I've recuited already... better still I know him well and work with him in another band a few years back...
All I need now to complete the line up is a 7-string riffer...
it's all coming together - poco a poco

nick - mong generally means complete idiot and it is of similar strength and perspective as 'complete twat', 'total wanker', etc...

it is not as flexible in terms of the number of different contextual meanings as the words fuck and bollox

it only has the two meanings

1/ Mong - someone who is desperately un-clever

2/ Monged - someone who is desperately un-clever and a result of drink / drugs...

Therefore, some one can be a mong and get monged. But you don't have to be a mong to get monged. However, it is typical for someone that is not normally a mong to behave like a mong when monged.
It is also true that many people are complete mongs without the excuse of being monged.. They just constantly exhibit mongey [spoken: mong-ee] behaviour.

When a mong is monged, you'd expect that this heightened state amplifies the general mongeyness.. and this is true it does.. However there is no Mong term to describe this exra-mongey state... No ultra-mong for example.. It seems that once you are a big enough / drunk enough idiot to cross over into the realms of being a mong, you are then simply a mong no matter how much worse you get...

Ga6e - I'm familiar with Marcel's playing... something tells that I think I may have met him somewhere once too...

Berkeley - I'm sure that I must have drank beer out of a bog pan with an Irishman... but then I wouldn't remember would I... lol

Not all of us in Europe are anti-USA... you have many friends and allies in the UK ... that's for sure...

On your press-up - sit up thing... you should never train the same muscle group within 48 hours and this damages the fibres.... and if you train exaclty the same way every time then your body gets used to it.... you need more veriety.. to loose weight you'll have to train quite a bit harder... but 3 times per week would be enough....

Theory posse: Let’s change the subject a little – Pitch Axis… We’ve been talking previously about modulation and the main thing to note here is that your solo is effectively the melody. This means that if the chord progression changes key, your solo has to change with it. The ‘jazzers’ call this “playing the changes”. Pitch Axis is in essence the reverse of playing the changes, more like playing the options. It works on the principle that a chord can be thought of in terms of being a member of more than one key. Think back to the chord types that are created by a major scale.

I = major, II = minor, III = minor, IV = major, V = major, VI = minor, VII = minor b5

So if we look at a minor triad you can see that it can be chord II, chord III or chord VI of a major scale….

Example: Using the chord Am it can be seen to fit into a major scale in three different chord positions. Each of these positions can be thought of in modal terms:-
II in the key of G [this would be A Dorian]
III in the key of F [this would be A Phrygian]
VI in the key of C [this would be A Aeolian]

This means choices.. Imagine playing a solo in the key of Am… Normally you’d play entirely using the notes from Am… Pitch Axis says “why limit yourself?” Why not introduce notes from the key of G to make your solo Dorian [the 2nd mode of G major]…. The notes in the key of G are G, A, B, C, D, E, F#… the chord Am is A, C, E… The Am chord fits into the scale… so this scale is a perfectly legitimate choice…
This adds a new dimension to the solo due to the introduction of a different note value..
Note VI in Am is F, note VI in A Dorian is F#.. The Dorian mode will be less minor than the AM scale and therefore has a slightly ‘happier’ vibe.
the switch between the modes can occur for the whole duration of the Am chord or for a just a moment.. or you can switch back and forth… it’s your solo… it’s therefore up to you…

Theory Posse - Now here is were it gets better… All us riffers are partial to using the X5 chord .. we like our power chords… take a look at the chords of the major key… the 1st six of them contain the perfect 5th interval.. your options have just doubled…

Example progression: E5 ‘ ‘ ‘ ¦ D5 ‘ ‘ ‘ ¦ C5 ‘ ‘ ‘ ¦ A5 ‘ ‘ ‘ ¦
E5 can be: I of E [E Ionian], II of D [E Dorian], III of C [E Phrygian], IV of B [E Lydian], V of A [E Mixolydian], VI of G [E Aeolian]
D5 can be: I of D [D Ionian], II of C [D Dorian], III of Bb [D Phrygian], IV of A [D Lydian], V of G [D Mixolydian], VI of F [E Aeolian]
and so on……..

Record this little riff, work out all of the combinations and experiment…

This will add a completely new dimension to your playing… and many of your old licks will get a new lease of life…

To hear this playing method in practice, go to my IUMA site and check out PRM Boxter… There are only a handful of X5 chords… The riff is based upon Summer Song so it has a nice vibe and plenty of pace… All of the tonal diversity is caused by Pitch Axis in great abundance…

Note that I’ve only applied this to the diatonic major scale to create these modal shifts… The Harmonic minor and the Melodic minor ascending will add further options…. This opens up a whole new world of tonality for those of you that take the time to work out the options….

At first this will seem like too much to cram into your head let alone apply ad hoc… like anything else.. the more often you apply it the more memorable and therefore the easier it becomes…..

Berkeley - Don't worry bro.. you'll find that the US and the UK have a lot more in common than many folks think... which is pretty much why we've stood together for the last 100 years as allies in culture, trade and as military powers..

Also - top man getting all sick... I hope it was caused by beer... any other excuse would be so fem..

I kinda liked Wolf and his odd way of looking at things... I loved reading his posts even though I never understood any of them.... I wonder what he did that was so bad to piss off the psychos tracking him down...

No one will take my crown... ha ha ha no one.....!!!!!

Also, Twig didn't write that post... so it don't count..... ha ha ha .... I will prevail... !!!!!

To neutralise Eminem... play People = Shit [Slipknot - Iowa track 2] really loud... then set fire to their car...

Thanx.. Talking to Stone is quite pretty... for me this is a very emotional track to play... I only have room on my first album for one more track... and I think the subject material is being sorted... Crucifixion / blood / thunder and general religious angst... Maybe I'll put Talking to Stone of the next album... I think that I could add a real nice orchestral part to this... something not a million miles from Barbers adagio for strings....

I'm looking forward to the jam too... I just need to find a free weekend... I've had my new flooring fitted... my 3rd bathroom at the moment is just a room... I've just had to get a suite for it so last weekend was spent driving around looking at bogz... lol... it'll be pretty soon now...